Post by xdragon on Jul 28, 2016 3:52:24 GMT
Since I've been using Elros, my goal was to maximize the ability of someone using a very unwieldy choice of weapon, a double crossbow. Elros has been sort of an experiment and now that he's made it through the first "quarter" of his intended career it's time to make a real comparison using him as a base between using a double crossbow and a heavy crossbow.
Given the rulings of the GM's constant gravity bow is not allowed and wielding a large sized crossbow as a medium character is not allowed (although some boards would allow, just at a staggering -6 to attack).
Elros is a level 6 Fighter with the Crossbowman archetype, giving him access to the Deadshot and Crossbow Expert abilities. He also has the current feats, 9 total.
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Reload (Double Crossbow)
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Double Crossbow)
Deadly Aim
Vital Strike
Crossbow Mastery
Precise Shot
Weapon Specialization (Double Crossbow)
So what's the deal with using a double crossbow? Well it's about using a particular double crossbow. The Minotaur Double Crossbow is of course a double crossbow meant for Minotaurs but it has actual stats provided by the monster sheet and other PF sources put the cost at 300 gp standard. The advantage of this crossbow is it's disadvantage. A standard double crossbow gives a PROFICIENT user a -4 to attack while as a MDC gives a proficient user -2.
**Edit 7/29/16 I'm also adding in a comparision to a similar build with a level 6 Archer with a +1str composite longbow just for shits. The feats for said made up build go as follows
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Manyshot
Deadly Aim
Efficient Pull
Bullseye Shot
Now then, with that out of the way it's time to see the numbers.
*Ranged attack mod + Weapon mod + Masterwork Weapon bonus + Crossbow Expert/Expert Archer + Weapon Focus + Point Blank Shot
**Crossbow Expert+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim+Weapon Specialization
***If all attacks land
****Str mod+Expert Archer+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim+Weapon Specialization
From what I can see, both crossbow certainly have their own "proper" way to be used. The MDC is suprisingly really good at vital striking mostly because of the whole double your rolls thing.
"Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses" from www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final
Then again using the heavy crossbow leans itself towards a better role for rapid shot as you get 3 bolts launched every turn for more damage on your dice with the same damage bonuses (3d8 vs 3d10).
At the moment, both bows are viable and neither bow has a particularly large advantage over the other.
****As of adding the Composite longbow comparision its clear to see why bows are typically taken over crossbows. To think, this is only a +1 str bow and its damage is already far greater thanks to the additional arrow fired and given how poor the damage of a Vital strike bow is compared to just full rounding, you'd probably just pick up another feat that actually brings some utility. Elros sure isn't optimal, but this at least puts it into perspective.
Given the rulings of the GM's constant gravity bow is not allowed and wielding a large sized crossbow as a medium character is not allowed (although some boards would allow, just at a staggering -6 to attack).
Elros is a level 6 Fighter with the Crossbowman archetype, giving him access to the Deadshot and Crossbow Expert abilities. He also has the current feats, 9 total.
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Reload (Double Crossbow)
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Double Crossbow)
Deadly Aim
Vital Strike
Crossbow Mastery
Precise Shot
Weapon Specialization (Double Crossbow)
So what's the deal with using a double crossbow? Well it's about using a particular double crossbow. The Minotaur Double Crossbow is of course a double crossbow meant for Minotaurs but it has actual stats provided by the monster sheet and other PF sources put the cost at 300 gp standard. The advantage of this crossbow is it's disadvantage. A standard double crossbow gives a PROFICIENT user a -4 to attack while as a MDC gives a proficient user -2.
**Edit 7/29/16 I'm also adding in a comparision to a similar build with a level 6 Archer with a +1str composite longbow just for shits. The feats for said made up build go as follows
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Manyshot
Deadly Aim
Efficient Pull
Bullseye Shot
Now then, with that out of the way it's time to see the numbers.
Heavy Crossbow | Minotaur DC | +0 Composite Longbow | |
Base Damage | 1d10 | Effectively 2d8 | 1d8+1 |
Attack Mod | 0 | -2 | 0 |
Reload time with Crossbow Mastery | Always Free | Move if you load 2 bolts | N/A (Still free to shoot) |
Elros's Max Attack Bonus | 12+0+1+1+1+1*(+16) | 12-2+1+1+1+1*(+14) | 12+0+1+1+1+1*(+16) |
Effective Max attack Pattern | 3 bolts per turn | 3/2/3/2/3 attack pattern | 4 Arrows per turn |
Damage Roll (Vital) | 2d10+1+1+4+2** | 4d8+2+2+8+4** | 2d8+1+1+1+4+2**** |
Damage Roll (Rapid) | 3d10+3+3+12+6** | 3d8+3+3+12+6** | 4d8+4+4+4+16+8**** |
Min/Med/Max Damage (Vital) | 10/18/28 | 20/32/48 | 11/17/25 |
Min/Med/Max Damage (Rapid)*** | 27/39/54 | 27/36/48 | 40/52/68 |
Absolute Minimum (Rapid) | 9 | 9 | 10 |
Rapid Shot Roll | +14/+14/+9 | +12/+12 | +14/+14/+9 |
*Ranged attack mod + Weapon mod + Masterwork Weapon bonus + Crossbow Expert/Expert Archer + Weapon Focus + Point Blank Shot
**Crossbow Expert+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim+Weapon Specialization
***If all attacks land
****Str mod+Expert Archer+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim+Weapon Specialization
From what I can see, both crossbow certainly have their own "proper" way to be used. The MDC is suprisingly really good at vital striking mostly because of the whole double your rolls thing.
"Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses" from www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final
Then again using the heavy crossbow leans itself towards a better role for rapid shot as you get 3 bolts launched every turn for more damage on your dice with the same damage bonuses (3d8 vs 3d10).
At the moment, both bows are viable and neither bow has a particularly large advantage over the other.
****As of adding the Composite longbow comparision its clear to see why bows are typically taken over crossbows. To think, this is only a +1 str bow and its damage is already far greater thanks to the additional arrow fired and given how poor the damage of a Vital strike bow is compared to just full rounding, you'd probably just pick up another feat that actually brings some utility. Elros sure isn't optimal, but this at least puts it into perspective.